Transcript
Stephan Shipe: Welcome back to the Scholar Wealth Podcast. This week, a listener is supporting an adult child who has struggled financially for years and wants to know if there’s a way to provide help that builds accountability rather than dependence. Then a consultant who has maxed out their solo 401k every year wants to understand whether layering a cash balance plan on top makes sense. Finally, Chris Demaillet joins us from the field. Chris spent nearly two decades as a traveling private chef for high-profile families before founding Montclair Chef, a placement agency that helps families find the right culinary talent for their homes. So let’s go ahead and get started with question one.
Question 1 – Structuring Financial Support for an Adult Child That Builds Accountability Instead of Dependence
Stephan Shipe: “My son is 32 and struggling financially. We’ve given him money informally over the years, probably $180,000 total, and it never seems to solve anything. We have the means to help more, but my wife and I disagree on whether continued support is helping him or hurting him. Is there a structured way to provide support that builds accountability rather than dependence?”
Great question. And probably one of the more common questions that we get when we start dealing with family dynamics and gifting to children because there’s this tension there that builds that you want to help, but you don’t want to ever cross that line where they start to become dependent upon your help in a bad way. And what I mean by that is you can do this successfully where you can help kids and they can still depend on that gift and use it for good in their finances. But it’s really easy to get on the other end of that where the help becomes dependency for a lot of different poor financial decisions that are made, which only creates a deeper hole where the gift has to continue getting larger and larger and larger. Now, not saying that is definitely the case here, but this is very much a story that parallels many of the others that we’ve seen where the gifts are likely to continue to get larger and the need is going to become larger from more and more things in your son’s life.
So I think from the beginning of this, and we look at whether this is helping him or hurting him, it’s probably doing both. It’s helping in the short term, hurting in the long term. And that’s where you run into this problem because some people look at this and say, well, that means we just got to cut it off if it’s going to hurt him in the long term. But the problem is you’ve already created this precedent of dependence on your giving that now there’s probably not a structure in place for him to help himself out of the next time he needs cash. So what we need to do is build out a structure in the short term that allows him to still get support from you while also starting to build some responsibility and some skills when it comes to finances for the long term. So it’s a little bit of a combination. I can’t say one side or the other. I think it’s a combination of both helping and hurting. And that structure can look very different depending on what types of issues or what needs there have been in the past.
So if we think about it from a very basic perspective, I think one of the first things you’ve got to have is a conversation. You’ve got to sit down and go over this and say, we are worried that what we’re doing to help in the short term is actually hurting you in the long term, because we’re not going to be here forever. And eventually you’re going to have to do all this yourself. Setting up ways that you can be on the same team is a really big step. And what I mean by that is the common trap that everyone falls into is there’s a car repair bill that needs to be paid and the child can’t pay it. So they reach out to their parents, parents say don’t worry, we’ll take care of it and write the check. And what that does is it starts to provide this option where you’re the lender of last resort. In other words, no matter what, you’ve created a base now where if they ever run out of money, there’s always support there. Again, not necessarily a bad thing for kids. And I think a lot of parents would agree they want to be the lender of last resort if their kids are ever in trouble. Where that becomes a problem is if it goes to the next step of now they look at it and say, well, maybe I can spend a little bit more of my paycheck and burn through a little bit more of my cash that I have, because I know that mom and dad are going to be there for me if I can’t make next month’s house payment or I can’t pay the utility bills.
And it always starts off small until it becomes this factor of somewhat recurring, and it doesn’t have any structure. So it’s recurring, not in a we’re going to give you a thousand dollars a month to help with your expenses way. It’s recurring in this month it’s new tires on the car, next month it’s needing help with rent, down the road it’s needing help with this type of purchase, or now the car has broken down and at the end of the year we’re going to have to get a new car. And it always seems like there’s something. The phrase that gets brought up is it’s never a consistent need. It’s a consistency of there being some emergency event, which is what worries parents, because they always get down to this point where it’s not like they’re needing help buying things that are not going to be needed. This is rent, right? They need a car to get to work. So you get stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So what I would recommend in your case is having that conversation and then setting up a structure that has some conditionality associated with it. In other words, setting up savings goals. That’s what I mean by being on the same team. You don’t want to be the bank. You don’t want him to be living his life and whenever something goes wrong, he has to come to you for support. What you want to do is say you want to be on the same team with him and say, we think it’s important for you to build up an emergency fund, for you to have some cash that you can dip into. So when you do have an emergency, you can handle that yourself. So what we’re going to do is every dollar you put into a savings account, we’ll put in another dollar. If you’re able to go get that job that you haven’t been able to get, we’ll give you a signing bonus from us to help support that. You’re going to need a new car, not now, but probably in the next couple of years. So let’s start saving for that now. And every dollar you can bring in for a down payment on the car, we’ll bring in $2 for it. So you’re still able to give a large gift in these scenarios, but what ends up happening is you’re on the same page with him and you’re supporting the same goals. So he can be excited about accomplishing this himself. And you’re just throwing a little bit of gasoline on the fire for those situations.
So to wrap that one up before we get into the next question, I think the big key here is that you need to have the conversation, open up those lines of communication, voice your opinion of where the concern is, but don’t leave it as we have this concern so now you’re on your own, because there’s not a structure in place for him to be on his own to afford all of this. And part of that may be because he’s received all these gifts in the past.
Question 2 – Can a Consultant Stack a Cash Balance Plan on Top of a Solo 401k?
Stephan Shipe: “I have a solo 401k for my consulting business and contribute the max every year. I’m trying to figure out layering a cash balance plan on top of it to shelter an additional $200,000 or more annually. I don’t fully understand how the two plans interact and what the long-term commitment looks like.”
So both great plans. Solo 401k is by far the easier one to set up. As you know, you go to your broker, you have it set up, you’re going to fund it every year. Because it’s a solo, you’re not having to worry about any employees or anything along those lines. So the actual tests for discrimination tests and top hat plans and everything, all of that disappears. You’re focused just on you being able to hit the max every year, which is based on a percentage of total earnings of the business. So that one’s set.
What’s nice about that is a cash balance plan is a true pension plan, completely separate from a solo 401k. So you’re going to have different limits. There’s going to be a different reporting requirement. There’s a different responsibility completely. So the nice thing is it’s completely separate. You’re not going to have to worry too much about the interaction there. Where the difficulty comes from is the fact that the cash balance plan is a true defined benefit plan, like the pension plans of old, where you had a pension plan and the company would put in a certain amount every single year. And it was based on how old their employees were and how much money they made. And that funded that pension so that later on they’d have this money. So it puts the risk on the employer as opposed to the employee. That’s where the whole 401k shift came in, is we started to see employers say, well, we don’t want to take this risk of having to pay people forever. So what if we just put that money in a 401k and push that risk over to the individual employee.
What you’re doing is doing both. You have some risk that’s going to the employee. And then you as the employer of yourself are also taking on the pension risk. So it’s going to require contributions that are based on your age, based on a typical contribution increase every year. In other words, a growth rate that’s built in, which means you now have to bring in an actuary. And an actuary is going to look at that pension and determine whether your pension is overfunded or underfunded, just like you would hear with states having pensions that are overfunded or underfunded. So you now have to do that. Does that absolutely bring on costs? Absolutely. You’re going to need an actuary review, you’re going to need to have a pension company create it for you. But the benefits can be there because depending on your age and how much you’re contributing, those contribution limits can exceed $200,000. So in combination between the solo 401k and the cash balance plan, you could be stacking away $300,000 every single year.
But the commitment is absolutely a concern. The IRS wants consistent funding for multiple years. They’re going to look at this and say, is this really a pension plan or is this just you wanting to get rid of some income for one year because you had an up year? And this is where I think we see a lot of disconnect when people look at cash balance plans. And one thing I would recommend for you as well, especially because you have a consulting business, is the reason you’re opening up this conversation about having a cash balance plan, is it because you expect your income to stay high for the next at least five years? Or is it, I just had a really good year, I don’t want to pay that tax bill, can I open up a cash balance plan, fund it, and then shut it down next year? That’s the one I would not recommend.
I would say the right situation for a cash balance plan is a consulting business that’s doing well, and you think you can easily put $300,000 away every single year for the foreseeable future. In that case, yeah, it’s probably worth the administrative and actuarial headache of having a pension set up, paying the fees, paying for the complexity that goes along with it. So it works really well with high, stable income. If your consulting income is lumpy, then we have two issues. One is that you risk underfunding your own pension. You have the risk of you, as the employer, not actually funding your pension completely because you don’t have the income or income’s down. You lose some flexibility there. What’ll be nice about this, if it’s set up correctly, is that in a few years, you can go through it, everything builds out. And if you want to shut it down later on, after it’s been funded consistently for several years, you shut it down and it rolls over into your IRA, which opens up possibilities for Roth conversions and everything else. If you’re really trying to optimize from a tax perspective of, I’m going to stack as much cash now, tax deferred, with a plan for in the future being able to convert that at a lower tax rate, which is typically what I see in these situations. To summarize on that one, no issue on having both that I see in your situation. It could be a great benefit. I would just make sure that you’re expecting that to be consistent going forward.
From the Field – What It Takes to Find and Place the Right Private Chef
In our From the Field segment, we explore what it takes to find and place the right private chef. We’re joined by Chris Demaillet, founder of Montclair Chef, a private chef placement agency. Chris spent nearly two decades as a traveling private chef, serving families around the world before founding Montclair Chef to help families navigate the process of finding the right culinary talent for their homes.
Stephan Shipe: Chris, welcome to the Scholar Wealth Podcast. Why don’t you start off by giving us a little bit of information about your background and what that transition looked like going from private chef to now placing culinary talent.
Chris Demaillet: Absolutely, Stephan. First of all, thank you so much. I really appreciate you giving me the space to share my story and what we’ve built so far with Montclair Chef. So how do I go from being a private chef to running my own company? It’s a great question. And I think this came after many, many years working in both restaurants and as a private chef. I spent the last 19 years as a traveling chef, private chef for some high net worth families, both in Europe and in the US. And after so many years, I became a dad. I turned 40 years old and I decided, okay, what’s next? Because after spending so much time cooking for others and taking care of their family, I decided that it was time for me to take care of my own family and launch the next venture, the next step, because altogether I spent 25 years as a chef. So I have a background in Michelin star restaurants and like I said, 20 years as a private chef. And I was just looking for the next challenge.
Stephan Shipe: And when somebody’s going through that process, and this is something we hear from clients all the time, they start looking at trying to take some things off their plate, right? And they start looking at bringing in a chef. But the most common thing is I don’t even know where to start. So when somebody’s starting to consider culinary services for the first time, what does that process look like, or typically look like, for them to find someone to come into their home and start to cook for them?
Chris Demaillet: That’s absolutely a great question because what I like to tell the clients that we work with is, first, I like to understand if they’ve had a private chef before or not, because that’s going to be two different searches. And the main difference is if they’ve never had a private chef, they need to understand what they need. First of all, it may sound obvious, but are you looking for someone a few days a week? Are you looking for someone five days a week? Do you want that chef to be cooking three meals per day? Are you looking for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Do you want someone to stay over the weekend or do you want to have the weekends without the chef, without any staff in your residence so you can have time with your family? So that would be the first step, to understand really what they want and what they need. That’s my role as well because with my background, I was a private chef before. So I understand firsthand what it is like to be a private chef for a demanding family, for a busy family, for a traveling family. So that’s something I can bring to them.
And secondly is what type of food, what type of cuisine are you looking for? Because obviously we have clients that are really set on hiring a Michelin-trained private chef because they used to frequent these establishments. They used to go out a lot and they really understand the level and they’re really passionate about food and they love to entertain on the weekend. They love to have business lunches and corporate events. They would have the chef as their family chef and on a weekly or monthly basis, they would just organize amazing dinners for their friends or for their partners. So this is something that they could get from a Michelin-trained chef. Then we have all the other families that are simply looking for, and when I say simply, I put air quotes on that because simple is never simple, as you probably know. But they would be looking for healthy cuisine, something that they can just eat on a daily basis and they don’t want overly complicated. They want to make sure the kids are eating. They want to make sure there is enough protein because perhaps Mr. is on a high protein diet. They want to make sure it’s low carb. They want to make sure it’s organic. So there are a lot of tweaks that we can adjust on the search, but overall they need to understand what they want. I think that’s the main goal for me when I get on the phone with a client. The first contact we have is, okay, just let me understand what you’re looking for and I can help you adjust that. And also I can manage your expectations because it’s important to also tell them what we can and what we can’t do with personal staff, with domestic staff, in terms of working hours, how many days a week, can they travel with the chef all the time, what are you looking for, is it short term, are you looking for someone that is going to stay within your family for years? Because some families are really looking for that. They’re looking for longevity.
Finding the Right Fit: Cuisine, Experience, and Personality
Stephan Shipe: Do you think it’s more difficult to search for or to find someone for a family who has experience with more of the complexity of handling the travel and the different schedules and the different types of meals, whether they’re, as you mentioned, like corporate events versus personal meals, or is it more difficult to find a certain type of cuisine that someone’s looking for, a certain type of restrictions there or maybe training that’s led to that?
Chris Demaillet: Yeah, it depends. It depends. For example, we had a client that was originally from Southeast Asia and they were looking for a chef that was specifically strong in Southeast Asian cuisine. So this obviously on the whole search is going to be very limited in terms of what profiles we can provide to them. So of course, we have chefs that are specialized in Vietnamese cuisine and others that are specialized in kosher cuisine. So we have a little bit of everything. It’s important to know what they’re looking for and to help them basically just find exactly what they’re looking for. And if that means a specialized type of cuisine, that’s what we’re here for.
Stephan Shipe: And how should families think about cost structure? What does that look like when someone’s trying to budget for this change, especially if they’re going from never having a private chef before to doing this for the first time? How does that price dynamic change from full-time to a couple of days a week to travel and to all the different elements that go into making this successful?
Chris Demaillet: Yeah, absolutely. And the cost is very important on the chef side as well, because as you know, it’s like in any industry, the best chefs are going to be targeting the highest salary and packages. So you have to understand that if a chef works exclusively for you, there’s a premium on that because the chef is not going to go on working for other families. He’s going to be at your service, he’s going to be on call if you need the chef to be. So this price is going to be obviously higher than hiring a chef for a few days a week. But I would say if you’ve never had a chef before, especially a private chef, it could be a good idea to start with a few days a week. It’s going to be, of course, more cost efficient than having a full-time employee. Then it depends if you’re doing W2 or 1099. But overall, the chef will be a domestic employee. So you would have to cover the package. That may include a 401k. That may include health insurance. So there are a lot of costs that you need to include.
On top of that, if your search is very specific, we have pools of chefs in different hubs in the U.S. and in Europe as well, because we cover both the U.S. and Europe and the UK. But it’s important to know that perhaps the specific chef that you’re looking for might not be in your state. So there might be a relocation package that you need to include in that search as well. That might just be a flight, or it could also be a few weeks of accommodation for the chef. A lot of our clients actually have staff houses and housing provided for the chef and for the other staff members. So it really depends on what level of food you’re looking for. It depends on what type of cuisine you want. And I still want to say that a chef that has spent 10, 15 years in a Michelin star restaurant and then another five years as a private chef is going to come at a premium compared to a chef that has worked in a standard restaurant and doesn’t have that many years of fine dining or high-end restaurant on their resume. So the cost really comes down to the cost of domestic staff that is extremely well-trained. And it depends on if you want full time, which is obviously going to be more pricey than if you’re looking for someone just a few days a week, or if you’re looking for someone that does drop-off meals, because you can start with a drop-off meal a few days a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and that covers your week. You can have a chef that cooks in your house a couple of days a week, three days a week. And then at the really top end, you have the chef that is really dedicated to one family. And again, if you want me to talk about cost in the U.S., Stephan, in New York the salary of a chef on a yearly basis is going to start around $165,000 per year, plus benefits, plus packages, and all the way to $300,000 plus per year for an extremely well-trained chef that has longevity, that has experience, and that is highly specialized. So there’s a wide range of what you can expect in terms of cost.
Stephan Shipe: So then if we’re looking at fit between a family and the chef, and obviously compensation is a big part of that and the whole package of benefits, whether it’s housing or 401ks or anything along those lines, when you start going back to your experience, what are the things that led to you looking at a situation and saying this is going to be a good fit? And outside of pay, outside of compensation, how do you look at and say this is a good relationship between this family and the chef? What are the types of dynamics there that need to work?
Chris Demaillet: You are absolutely right, Stephan. The experience is one thing, but in domestic placement and in the type of placement that we provide, the personality fit is almost always more important than the experience of the chef. Simply because if we have a chef that comes straight out of a Michelin star or fine dining establishment and starts their career as a private chef, they might try to recreate the same type of cuisine that there is in a restaurant, all these tasting menus and all this type of offering that is not necessarily what the families are looking for. So it’s important to make sure the chef understands what the family wants. And the personality fit is so important simply because the chef is going to actually work in the kitchen in the house of these principals and is going to be around the family, around the kids, going to be becoming part of the family after a few months. So it’s very important that the culture fit is as important, if not sometimes more important, than the actual culinary background of the chef. Don’t get me wrong, they’re both very important. The chef has to be able to cook. He has to be able to listen to what the family is looking for. And the chef needs to be able to listen to what the guests want, and the guests are the principals. And yes, he has to be both a nice person overall, because once you get integrated into this type of family, they have expectations, they have demands, and they also want people to be discreet and to be polite and respectful. So I would say personality is probably a big one for private chefs as well.
The Transition From Restaurant to Private Home
Stephan Shipe: Do you see that as a difficult transition from someone who’s classically trained in a Michelin star restaurant? That’s a very different work environment going from that, plating hundreds of meals, then going to a home where the volume is significantly less, the customization is much higher, and then personality becomes significantly more important. Is that a difficult transition? Do you see that a test run or a transition period is needed before you get into that?
Chris Demaillet: Yeah, it can be. It can be difficult. It’s especially difficult because as a chef, you would think the role and the expectations are the same. You’re here to create incredible food. But they are not, because quite often the family, and this is what we see when we talk to clients, they’re looking for simple cuisine. They’re looking for healthy cuisine. They’re looking for delicious food that they can recognize. If you transition from a restaurant, no matter if it’s a Michelin star restaurant or not, actually it doesn’t matter. But in terms of, you’re right, you mentioned the volume, you mentioned the repetition, which is the opposite of what you’re actually going to do in a private family because you’re not going to do a hundred plus covers per night. You’re not going to do the same menu for three months or change the menu every season. You’re going to change your menu every day and you’re going to cook for six people, maybe three. Sometimes you might just cook for one. And that doesn’t mean it has to be fast and easy. It can be simple, but it always needs to be on top and it always needs to be perfectly, perfectly executed.
So this is something that takes a little while to understand, because when you come from a Michelin star kitchen or from a high-end restaurant, you are being molded into this chef that needs to be able to do techniques and speed and execution and everything has to be perfect. And when you start your career as a private chef, this is the opposite because people don’t necessarily care about having a foam or a jelly on the plate. They don’t care about having perfectly square-diced tomatoes like I’ve done for weeks in a Michelin star restaurant, where the goal was if it’s not perfectly square, you start again and you put it into staff meal. When in a family, you cannot spend that time. You cannot spend that time. First of all, you are alone most of the time. You are a one man show, a one woman show. So you have to do everything from breakfast to dessert to canapés to snacks to ice cream to kids’ soup. So you have to do it all yourself. And you cannot afford to spend 45 minutes dicing a tomato perfectly because this is how it should look. You have to switch your focus and your skills into, what is the principal looking for? Is it important if the dice are not perfectly squared or is it more important to be on time so we don’t keep the client waiting? Because that’s a big one as well. When they sit down, they want the food straight away and they might not want to spend more than 35 minutes at a table. So you have to be fast. You’re on your own. And yeah, you have to make sure you cook for what they want. And if that means three times a week they’re looking for boiled chicken and steamed asparagus, this is what you do. And as a chef, it can feel difficult because chefs want to do more. They want to show how much they know. They want to show the technique.
And another good example, Stephan, is we have a few clients that have family recipes or they might go online and find a recipe for a carrot cake or something and they would like the chef to prepare it. And in theory, it sounds great. The chef has an easy job. Here’s the recipe, produce it and make it. And more often than not, it’s actually quite difficult to have the chef follow the instructions on that recipe because as a chef, you are trained to look for errors and look for how to make it better and faster. And this is the way we should beat the egg and it should be room temperature, it shouldn’t be cold, when a lot of recipes are straight to the point and they’re very simple because they’re not meant to be complicated. So there are some chefs that struggle to adjust. It’s like every industry. The first few jobs are entry level and they are there to teach you what to do, what not to do. And once you’ve done a few years, you understand the game. And it’s very different from restaurants. Yes.
Maintaining Consistency Across Multiple Residences
Stephan Shipe: And how do you maintain that consistency through different locations? Because as you mentioned, a lot of the clients that you’ve dealt with and that you’re placing through Montclair, right, they have busy schedules, multiple residences. They may be on a yacht, as your experience has been in the past. So how do you maintain that same type of cooking, same cuisine? How much preparation goes into a move to a different residence or short-term travel where you’re still there?
Chris Demaillet: Yeah, this is quite difficult. And that’s when the private chef is not just a private chef. And let me explain why I’m saying this, because we had a few clients this winter, for example, and they were living alone and they had small health issues or they were on a specific diet. So the addition of the private chef was not only someone that would cook, but it was someone to also exchange with. It was someone that the principal could talk to, they could exchange recipes again, like we mentioned before. So that was something that the private chef was doing.
And when you talk about multiple residences, this is also, it can be difficult because if, let’s take this example, you have a family that is based in New York and they have a residence in Florida and another one in California. This family has kids and they are looking for gluten-free and dairy-free cuisine. They only want organic produce in the kitchen. That sounds great. This is very easy to establish, you get used to it. But what happened often is they would send the private chef on their travel to the second residence one day ahead. And the chef would have to go to the shop and would have to restock the entire house and make sure everything is ready ahead of their arrival. Because what the chef produces is the same level as a butler or a house manager. They’re going to make sure that you have the juices that you like to have in the morning. They’re going to make sure that there is the brand of cereals that you want for breakfast. They’re going to make sure there is this special type of fruit that you only eat in the morning.
So the multi-residences is tricky. And in terms of consistency, again, it’s not always possible, but they’re really good at this. They know what they’re doing and they will find alternatives. And I think the clients understand as well. They understand that if they are today in California and tomorrow they are in London and the next day they are in Dubai, they’re not going to be able to find exactly the same produce. But I think there is a trust relationship as well with the private chef, especially for the traveling chefs. That would be, okay, my chef said this is not available, but he suggested an alternative. And I’m going to trust the chef because I know what they can do and they understand what we want. So the chef is going to be able to provide an alternative, which is not exactly the same as they would have back home, but it’s as good, or it’s what’s available on site. So there is a challenge there, but as I mentioned before, everything comes with the experience of the private chef. That’s why we always try to provide candidates that are experienced in restaurants, but also as a private chef, because it takes a few years to really understand what this type of family wants.
Stephan Shipe: And as we start to wrap up today, with all of your experience, both placing chefs and your experience as a private chef, what is one takeaway that you would really want people to keep in mind as they’re going through this search, especially those who maybe haven’t had a private chef in the past?
Chris Demaillet: Yeah, absolutely. What’s important to remember is this type of search is very specific. We are within a niche. The ultra high net worth industry is pretty small. And the private chefs specialized in this type of residence are even smaller. So I like to remind the client that when they’re looking for a chef, they certainly should pay attention to how the chef presents and their profile and the resume, the experience and the summary that we put together when we present the chef, because that’s important, and that’s my role. It’s the company’s role to filter the chefs and present the most targeted candidates for your search. But it’s important to remember as well that sometimes it might be worth spending 15 minutes on the phone. Now I understand that principals are very busy and they don’t have all the time in the world and they might not want to. But there’s often an estate manager or a head of family office that is in between, which is the person we talk to first, and to trust them to maybe do a few interviews of the candidates that we suggest. Because sometimes people are a bit quick to turn down a candidate because maybe there is something they don’t understand on the profile or they don’t think it’s the right fit. But a lot of the time, a quick conversation will help them identify that the chef that we have selected for them is the one we believe is the best fit for the role. Because we understand the side which is the recruitment and the placement of the chef, but we also understand the chef side, which is what they can do, what they have done before. So sometimes, and it’s always interesting to search for a unicorn, the good chefs that we have who are available today, they don’t stay unemployed very long. So that’s why I’m always encouraging the client to say, hey, why don’t we set up a call, 10, 15 minutes, and just tell me what you think. Because I really think this candidate would be great for your private residence.
Stephan Shipe: Makes perfect sense. Well, thank you very much, Chris, for coming on today and sharing a little bit of your experience. We appreciate it.
Chris Demaillet: It’s a pleasure, Stephan. Thank you so much for having me.
Outro
Stephan Shipe: And that’s our show. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next week!
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